==================
1.
Hello ALL!
First, let me introduce myself shortly. I'm Mikhail F. Bagaturov from Russia, a city of St. Petersburg. Working for the local zoo in Department of Invertabrates and amphibians recently start to participate into research of South-Eastern Asiatic herp-fauna projects under the Russian Academy of Scince. In my site in Introduction page you will find more info about me.
But, this is not a tend of starting this thread but...
Here i want to share with you some pictures of not yet id'ed species of Paramesotriton sp. from Northern Vietnam Province - Cao Bang.
For some reason I do not point the exact locality the species has been found, just a current elevation about 600 meters above the see level in streams.
The photos are:
Biotop:
Species in situ:
And pictures of female and male respectively.
the largest speciemn measures 18 cm which is much smaller for P. deloustale (also known for North Viet Nam, Vihn Fuc Province) or P. gungxiensis (ref. exactly to Cao Bang).
And i want your opinion on possible id since I'm unable to do it myself yet.
Thanks in further and I'm ready for any serious discussion on the topic. I knew also the opinion on P. deloustale and P. gungxiensis is the same species.
Фото самца и самки отсюда: http://tarantulas.tr...?showtopic=1475
==================
Два особо неинформативных комментария опускаю.
2. Ответ с их учётом:
Hello Azhael and Ralf and thanks for your comments and interest.
I definately would like to see Tam Dao specimens alive as i only saw preserved one. Will wait for your photos Ralf!
As for the belly coloration as i have a group of these parames i can assure you that it is very variable. It is also interesting that males` and females` patterns are very different too - thus some people here think this group is two different species. But all specimens was found on the stream into ~ 150 meters
I will try to illustrate what i`m talking about in near future while i`ll manage to make some good shots of animals.
And does anyone has properly ID'ed P. guangxiensis to compair with Tam Dao P. deloustale?
BTW. Doe anyone found water mites on the specimens pictured above? :)
And does it known for their cohabitation (I`ve found no any ref at all)?
=========
3.
Hello All!
Just for You Information. Yesterday i was visited by the famous Dr. Nikolai Orlov from Russian Academy of Science (Zoological Institute) and he has identified the species as Paramesotriton guangxiensis.
Now we also study the mites which is seems like simbiotic to these animals (you can see them aggregated under eye area on the photo of male in my first post).
==============
Примечательный ответ от Пола Баххаусена:
Here you see Paramesotriton guangxiensis from typ locality:
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1746
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1743
and here Tam Dao deloustali:
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1733
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1740
The water mites will be away in few months!
Can you give us some information about waterquality and temperature?
Paul
=================
4. Мой ответ.
Hello Paul!
Thanks for you answer.
That`s very interesting as most of typical colored of found P. guangxinensis are of other coloration (photo will follow soon).Originally Posted by paul_b
Hello Mikhail!
Here you see Paramesotriton guangxiensis from typ locality:
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1746
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1743
and here Tam Dao deloustali:
http://calphotos.ber....0000 0208 1733
http://calphotos.ber...&enlarge=0000 0 000+0208+1740
Already 4 months pass and they are still very healthy :) So I would be not very shure about it...Originally Posted by paul_b
The water mites will be away in few months!
I can tell just about the temperature i was measured and it was 19 by Celsius. The water sure is as always in streams there are clear and you can use it for prepearing food.Originally Posted by paul_b
Can you give us some information about waterquality and temperature?
Paul
Are there anything else you want to know?
=====================
5. Ответ Пола:
Thanks Mikhail,
19°C - what month have you been there?
The water mites:
The Tam Dao deloustali did not have them, but all laoensis. Here a photo of my female in the first months when I got it.
Also deloustali or "deloustali-like" from other parts of Vietnam had mites.
Here a photo of animals from Ha Giang.
All keeper report, that few months later they don't find any mites. So the question is "why not with your newts"?
Do you keep them together with other animals - fish or so?
Paul
=================
6. Комментарий немца Маркуса по клещам:
papers on parasitic mites in Urodela:
Goldschmidt, Gerecke, Alberti (2002): Hygrobates salamandrarum sp. nov. (Acari, Hydrachnidia, Hygrobatidae) from China: the First Record of a Freshwater Mite Parasitizing Newts (Amphibia, Urodela). Zoologischer Anzeiger, issue 4: 297-304
Goldschmidt & Koehler (2007): New species of the Hygrobates salamandrarum-group (Acari, Hydrachnidia, Hygrobatidae) from Southeast Asia. Zoologischer Anzeiger, Vol 247, issue 2: 73-89
===============
7.
Мой ответ.
Hello Paul and Markus!
It was end of May but I believe as the streams under good canopy the water temperature may fluctuate just in 1-2 grades.Quote:
19°C - what month have you been there?
As for mites, it seems like they survive in my conditions more than well. I keep 3 different groups of these paramesotritons: group of males (1), group of females (2) and a couple (3).
Groups 1 and 2 never had anything living in the same tanks. In 3 there was several (4-5) poecilia (guppies) but not any right now.
After some time I will renew the post with some images. It seems like as Markus also suggested they are very variable in color and sexually dimorphic species.
to Markus. Thank you for ref. I already was sent with these articles so if anyone else is interesting i can send it to you as well. Regards from Daniil (he will be here end of this week when we'll meet)!
to: Paul. Did You got my email (your PM was full)?
=============
8. Комментарий голландца В. Букемы:
Interesting discussion! I can add a few things;
Genetic relations between Paramesotriton in south China - north Vietnam are still not resolved. It is known that P. deloustali is very closely related to P. guangxiensis, and the two might be/could be the same species, or turn out to be recently diverged species (a matter of species concepts probably). In the recent description of P. ermizhaoi however, a very close relation between P. fuzhongensis and P. guangxiensis is found. The key is as always to sample a lot more populations in that area!
When P. guangxiensis was described, it was only compared to P. chinensis. Additionally, when P. fuzhongensis was described it was only compared to P. guangxiensis. A good comparision between deloustali and guangxiensis is still lacking, if all the variation isn't just intraspecific. Salamanders which are 100% sure from the guangxiensis area can be viewed at Herping paramesotriton arnaud.
At the Dutch Sal. meeting a few weeks ago it was mentioned that belly pattern of at least P. deloustali (Tam Dao) can change with age; the red slowly fades away (nothing to do with carotene). So finding a few old or a few young individuals can result in biased data.
Thanks for showing the photos and info, and keep it coming!
=========================
9. Мой ответ:
Hello dear Wouter!
Thank you very much as always for your useful comments and adds. This is exactly what i was awaiting someone to note.
It seems like the genus in general needs a revision with comparison of all types to fix the situation.
I hope i will get some specimens from Tam Dao, so i will compaire vouter specimens with typical P. deloustale myself.
As of distinguishing these two close related species i was aware that some DNA from the samples from the same locale as mine proceeding in Korea so I will inform you of the rezults when i'll been acquaint it.
Thanks also for directing to the link.
It is also that i think the species is sexually dimorphic and has age difference in coloration. I will show it with some time.
Right now i can tell that the female specimen shown above on picture is the only one showing the same coloration as the male. All other females is quite different but all males are the same as above.
============================
10.
Ещё мой ответ на один из вопросов:
Hello Chris!
Nothing for.Originally Posted by froggy
What sort of density were the animals living at (number of animals per area of stream bottom)? Did they seem to be territorial, or more gregarious?
Thankyou for posting this fascinating information. Chris
As for your questions all specimens was observed were found on the part of 150-180 meters of the stream (near 24 specimen), in each lagoon only 1 or 2 specimens (pairs) were found.
I would rather say they are not aggregate and more territorial. All animals were adult or close to adult (looking the sizes and ventral patterns).
=============
11. Мои 2 новых поста в тему:
Hello ALL!
So, here we go again.
Here i want to describe what was i mean above by different venral patterns of these nice parames.
Unlike males, which had the similar patterns, females of this particular species (i.e.let's pin it to local population characters as it is izolated stream) had rather different variety of coloration.
Here is the form someone can call intermediate (ref to males colors as the above pictures of the single and only individuality of female has the same colors like males).
I will continue posting after i made some pictures of typical colored females.
===
Hello All!
So, here I'm again. Finally i got managed to made some shots of other females of species in question.
And here's gastral shots of 3 different females of typical coloration patterns. You'll see it is rather different than the first one which is more close to male coloration
============
12. И наконец, мой последний пост:
And that's me again.
I have finally also got specimens preserved in alcohol origanlly collected from Tam Dao 2 weeks ago. You will see they look somethat close but rather different... and not only in coloration patterns but also in skin structure which is more verrucose in P. guangxiensis than in Tam Dao P. deloustale. Sure, all this important if these characters are valid in comparison with preserved and alive specimens.
On last pic I place a living smallest P. guangxiensis specimen of the group i have for comparison.
Hope that will be interesting for you.
====
Продолжение возможно следует, но было бы интереснее продолжить здесь.
